Ahnentafel Chart for Godwin CARPENTER Seigneur de Gouy-16311 First Generation 1. Godwin CARPENTER Seigneur de Gouy-16311 was born about 1100 in of, Arras, France and was christened in of, Suffolk, England. was buried about 1194 in St. Stephen, near Bayeux, Normandy, France. !NAME: aka: Godefroid or Godefroy in French, Godwin in Old English. Gaufrido Carpentari is the latin version. See E-MAIL note below. Per Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist: "In 1121 A.D. a Godwin Carpenter resided in Suffolk County, England." !Godwin is either the father or direct relative to Ailric or Robert Carpenter. Godwin was probably born in France, but no record is listed until a Suffolk record of 1121 and 114? (not readable) in which of the latter date he was probably the scribe or author? He may have been nominated or promised the Earl of Suffolk at one time. BUT, no official documentation in any record book. It is unknown if he died before 1154 or was kicked out of the country along with William of Ypres when King Edward II became King of England. See William's notes. CORRECTION FOUND! See E-MAIL note below! If what Raymond George Carpenter wrote about the is true, then William the Carpenter (the son of William "the carpenter De Melun) whose son Godwin, who was of age in Suffolk, England in 1121 AD. He would have been over 21 years of age or born about or before 1100. Was this Godefroy, Seigneur de Gouy (Gouye or Goy) who went to Arras, France? Probably. If so, the descendancy line may have gone through Reynaud (Richard) instead of Raulf (Ralph). !E-MAIL: 24 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" "... Origins in Normandy, from the Calendar of Documents Preserved in France, vol. 1, 1189-1199. "Charter of Jordan de Champern confirming to the canons regular.... Gaufrido Carpentari." This was for the Priory of St. Stephen in the Diocese of Bayeux. He is no earlier than the patronymic Carpenters in Carpentier's Histoire, but is from a primary source I have seen myself. I don't accept anything I haven't seem myself. BC" !BOOK: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT SELLERS. Printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909. EDITION LIMITED TO ONE HUNDRED COPIES. PRESS OF ALLEN, LAMB & SCOTT PHILADELPHIA. INTRODUCTION Although the family treated of In this work has not been definately traced beyond Pierre de Carpentier of Messen, Flanders yet its origin - appears in " Histore dc Cambray et du Cambresis, par Jean le Carpentier," published at Leyden, 1664, vol. II, page 369: "Since the year 1166 the family is known in the archives of the Abbey of Vauchelles to which much assistance was rendered by Barthelemy and Renaud Carpentier issue of Roger, Sire de Gouy, as we learn from the Tournament of Auchin in the year 1096. Siger Carpentier and Godefroy, descended from the said Renaud, were held in high esteem in Cambray and adjacent parts about 1200. Siger gave, among others, the tithes of Attiche to the Abbey of Cisoing in the year 1265, as can be seen in the archives of that place. He was Seigneur de Vannes and one of the most eminent knights of his time and laid the foundation for a fair posterity, which settled in French Flanders, through his marriage with Berthe Dame en Arquenghem by whom he had a son named Anseau whose descendants maintained themselves with glory and fame as late as the year 1400, when some of them, because of disfavor, were obliged to retreat to France, where, to the present day, they keep up the rank of their ancient nobility and are Seigneurs de Berthier, de Crecy, de Machy, de Ratilly de Marigny, etc. "This House possessed in the Netherlands, where the main branch has been extinct for nearly a century, the Seigneuries de Vannes, d' Avesnes lez Obert, du petit Ribecourt, de Maire, de Hamarree, de Tilloy, de Waignou, d'Aumont, de Flechinet, etc. It gave a bishop to Chartres and an abbot to St. Vaast in Arras; an almoner to Robert, Count de Flanders; governors to Therouane, grand bailiffs to Courtray; counsellors and gallant captains for armies to emperors, kings and princes, and even governors to newly discovered and conquered countires of the United Netherlands, etc. It has distinguished itself through brilliant alliances by marriage with many noble houses. Some of the descendants of the aforesaid Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert (benefactor of the Abbey of Vaucelles according to a title of the year 1280, and brother of the aforesaid Siger, Sire de Vannes), left for England and Holland, where they bear different arms, although descended from the same house which recognizes as its originators of the ancient and illustrious Seigneurs de Gouy or Goy, who are so renowned in the archieves of the abbies of St. Vaast d'Arras, Mont St. Elloy, Honnecourt, Mont St. Martin, etc., since the year 1036, which is mentioned by Andre Du Chesne in his genealogical works. "Of this house was Jean le Carpentier, Treasurer- General of the Emperor Charles the Fifth, who by Marguerite de Langhe, daughter of Jean, had a daughter named Jeanne le Carpentier, who married Matthieu de Keinooghen, son of Jean Escuyer and Barbe d'Espelghem, who was father of Marie de Keynooghem married to Adrian van der Goes." The rest of the book gives the descendants of this Pieter. MISC: See Jordan Carpenter the great grandson of Godwin's brother William. Is he the Jordan of de Champern who provided the charter? SEE: E-MAIL above. Godwin CARPENTER Seigneur de Gouy-16311 was born about 1100 in of, Arras, France and was christened in of, Suffolk, England. was buried about 1194 in St. Stephen, near Bayeux, Normandy, France. Second Generation 2. William CARPENTER-28699 was born about 1067/1068 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France. He died in France. William married Lady DE GOUYE-57356. !There is duplicative French records of Marne et Daniel of William, Lord William and William the Carpenter. There were two William Carpenters living between 1090 and 1110 AD. See father's notes. AKA: William the Carpenter instead of William "the carpenter" De Melun. The standard practice of the time in Normandy and the surrounding areas was that a member of a knight's family would stay home when the other members of the clan went off to fight. This tradition came from a type of bond, or security to a Lord or King. If the knight became a traitor, his bond or security was forfeit. William may have been such a bond to his father at least once, because he was the youngest. This William and his father are often confused in the records. The father was a supporter of the French Crown and the son, William the Carpenter, was not. !This was "Guilaume II" VisCount De Melun who later took the title of William the Carpenter after he was "outcast" by the French Crown. He supported the English in their efforts to secure France. Unlike his father he was not a supporter of the French Crown. The time he spent "being educated" by Normans in Normandy led to a break with the French Crown. While he was the younger son and a Count of Melun he was at odds with his own family. He was noted as a villian and "a most vile" person. The King of France traveled at the risk of his life through the lands this William the Carpenter controlled. After the battle in which "an arrow pierced his breast" and ended his life, the loyal French people rang church bells in celebration. Many of his lands became forfit and his family fled to the Kingdom of Flanders (now the Du Nord region of France). His wife is believed to be a daughter of the King of Flanders but was never named. It seems she was called Lady De Gouye. 3. Lady DE GOUYE-57356 was born about 1070 in of, Normandy, France. Was she from Vexin, Normandy, France? Third Generation 4. William "the Carpenter" DE MELUN Knight-16312 was born about 1042 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France and was christened in Lord of, Melun, in 1084, to abt 1098. He died about 1104/1109 in Ile De France, France. !TITLE: Known as "Guilaume I" Lord of Melun and possibly as Count of Corbeil. SEE NOTE BELOW "BOOK:" and "BATTLE OF HASTINGS:" regarding his nick name. William De Melun, Lord of Melun, Knight - nick named "the Carpenter". William the Carpenter b. abt 1098 of Melun, Seine-Et-Marne, France [Guillaume = William] - Film #: 170395, Page #: 134, Ordinance #: 4799 (Bap. 11 Feb. 1908 Manti - Pre 1970 ordinances) Per IGI. No mention in AF. !Per Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist, The Carpenter and Related Family Association: "My British Genealogy of the New England English Carpenter Family has descent due to our three cross-crosslets Coat of Arms from Viscount William (Carpenter surname) de Melune, a Norman Knight in the First Crusade, 1098 A.D., at the siege of Antioch, Syria. He was "nicknamed, Carpenter, from the weighty strokes of his BATTLE AXE" in battle because the axe and great strength were associated with the carpenter's trade. This family of Melun, Seine-et-Oise, France." Letter 5/96. Note: There is a Meulun on the Seine at Oise north by northeast of Paris. Melun is on the Seine (it started on an island) at the Marne and is south southwest of Paris. If what Raymond George Carpenter wrote above is true, then the William the Carpenter who fought in the First Crusade was not born about 1098 AD but about 1042 (if he was 56). There is duplicative French records of Marne et Daniel of William, Lord William and William the Carpenter. IE William the Carpenter (born about 1042 who fought at Atioch) who had a son named William (born about 1066) and grandsons, William and Godwin. This William was a supporter of the French Crown. However his son, also named William, was an enemy of the French Crown. When looking at records regarding this family, you will see a good and an evil William in relationship to the French Crown. The former is this William and the former is his son named William. !NAME: William Carpenter (Guillaume de Charpentier) - The youngest son also named the same. Note: William is a Saxon proper name. When one of the ancient germans had slain a Roman, the gilt helmet of the latter was placed on the head of the conqueror, who was known henceforward as gild helme. The name became in Latin "Gulielmus", in French "Guildhaume" [and afterwards] "Guillaume", and in English "William". Per Tony Carpenter in the UK. DESCENDANCY: This line is mostly speculation, except where historical documents indicate otherwise. From Maurice up to the 1400s is most probable then the records become more tangible. The best documentation starts on the "Bevis" in 1638 and continues onward to our time. Due to the lack of records, and name changes when titles were given, it is difficult to piece a record together of the CARPENTER Family in this part of history. Often the "Best Guess" is all what we can do until another record is found. !COAT OF ARMS: The arms granted to William "the carpenter" and his descendants were Pally of six, argent and gules, with three cross crosslets. This means a red and white vertical stripes with three French crosses. The first cross for the church sanctioned invasion of England in 1066 AD. The second for the church sanctioned liberation of Toldedo, Spain in 1087. The third cross for the church sanctioned and so caled "First Crusade" that conquered the Holy Land in 1097-1099 AD. A religious crusade was a Holy Roman Church sanctioned or approved warfare for religious purposes. With the addition of the chevron, azure representing service to the French crown, these arms are traced off and on from 1100 to the Church at Westbury upon Trin in 1443 placed there by Bishop John Carpenter of Worcester, England into the mid 1700s where Baron Carpenter of Killaghy had the same Coat-of-Arms. The above Coat of Arms and hereditary direct male descendancy became extinct in 1853. BOOK: Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - by Gibbons vol. 4, page 208: "Earl of Melun slaughtered his opponents with a large axe, thus earning himself the nickname of "The Carpenter." !BOOK: THE NORMANS by R. Allen Brown 1984. St. Martin's Press, NY. ISBN: 0-312-57776-1 940.17 Brown. Page 130 and 131: At the Seige of Antioch, Syria about Feburary 1098 - "Nevertheless, as the seige wore interminably on and conditions worsened, and as the expectation of another relieving army under the powerful Kerbogha, 'atabeg' of Mosul, increased, morale began to crack in certain quarters and divisions to appear amongst the Christian leaders. There were desertions, real and suspected, both before and after the battle of the Lake of Antioch. Amongst them were Peter the Hermit (of all people) and William 'the Carpenter' (so called - he was a knight and Lord of Melun) who slipped away in January and were ignominiously caught and brought back by Tancred, Bohemond's nephew. The "Gesta Francorum" gives us a military scene, timeless across the ages, as the wretched William stood in Bohemond'd tent at first light, to have strip after strip torn off him by his commanding officer - 'You wretched disgrace to the whole Frankish army -- you dishonourable blot on all the people of Gaul! You most loathsome of all men whom the earth has to bear . . .' etc.54" 54 refers to a note on page 185: "54 Gesta Francorum, p. 33. William had evidently deserted once before, on an expedition against the Moors in Spain, an incident of which he was now forcefully reminded by the outraged Bohemond." Mean Knight age per the the above book for Lords, Barons and Princes = 40 William the Carpenter De Melun probably died during the First Crusade, since there is no further mention of him. More "knights" died of disease than in battle. FURTHER Record is found indicating he was alive on 17 July 1100 when he was granted lands for his "efforts" during the First Crusade. Those lands were contested by Bohemond. Christians from France helped take Toledo from the Moors in 1084 - 1086. William was there and known as William "the carpenter" at that time because of the "Gesta Francorum." See Book Note above regarding "The Normans." SPOUSE: IGI records. Spouse listed as "Mrs. William De Melun". !BOOK: The ROLL OF BATTLE ABBEY by John Bernard Burke, Esq. reprinted Baltimore 1979, orginally printed in London 1848. 942.0 D3br. The Roll of Battle Abbey, the earliest record of the Normans, has at all times been regarded with deep interest, by the principal families of the United Kingdom. Especially those who show descent directly from the chiefs of William the Conqueror's host, as well as by those who indirectly establish a similar lineage. The Abbey of Battle, was erected upon a plain called Heathfield, about seven miles distant from Hastings, in fulfilment of a vow made by the Conqueror prior to the battle which won him the diadem of England. Of the names of the Norman Chieftains who survived the Battle we find "Melun" (page 6). !BATTLE OF HASTINGS: On 20 October (current calender) 1066 at about 10 to 11 (14 October 1066 of the calendar then used) o'clock in the morning, William the Conqueror and his forces commenced Battle against King Harold's English army. It is highly likely that this (our) William fought under Robert De Beaumont who was in charge of the Norman Knights. We can only surmize that our Knight William was outfitted as any good Norman Knight would be during that time period. He wore a helmet of metal with a nose piece and his main weapon being a lance (a long spear), then a long sword. He was armored with leather jerkin and chain mail from his neck to his knees. He rode into battle with a horse that was unarmored and unprotected. A tapestry representing the battle shows the favorite weapon of the english, the Battleaxe, being used in disabling the horses of the Norman knights. Probably, during the fighting, William's horse was crippled and he was forced to fight on foot. Maybe he lost his sword and grabbed an enemies Battleaxe, then in his desperate attempt to survive began swinging with all his might. This type of unthinking fighting is sometimes called "Beserking." A Beserker fights any enemy until he is killed or exhausted. We do not know if or how many times he was wounded, but he survived the battle. His comrades rewarded his efforts with the title "le charpentier." His strength and ability with the english Battleaxe was associated with the great strength and precision of the carpenter trade. So William the Knight of Melun became known as William the Carpenter. His descendants became known as of the Carpenter and later shortened to the surname of CARPENTER. Later during his rescue of a surrounded Norman army, William "the carpenter" again proved his worth in the present country of Turkey. This was before they got to the Holy Land. Compiled with the help of Willard (Will) N. Carpenter, Historian, of Gilbertsville, PA. !BOOK: "The Domesday Book - English Heritage Then and Now" published by Crown Publisher Inc. Published 1985. 942.02 Dom. ISBN 0-517-55868-8. Sometimes referred to as the Doomsday Book, but its correct title is THE DOMESDAY BOOK of 1086, records "Meluns" and "Carpenters" who were Normans. This William's sons are found in the Domesday Book under Norman land holders as Rayner Carpenter, Stephen Carpenter and Durand Carpenter. The latin sometimes shows "le charpentier." Or loosely translated, for example, Durand the son of the carpenter. There was only one Norman Knight, a Count of Melun named William who earned the title "le charpentier" for himself and his posterity. This was our William "the carpenter" De Melun. Willard (Will) N. Carpenter, Historian, of Gilbertsville, PA provided the information and connection of William "the carpenter" De Melun to the children "of the carpenter" listed above. !BOOK: Grand Dictionaire Universel DU XIX Siecle Paris 1873 Tome 10: (See also: Herve De Melun's notes) (page 1488) "Guillaume I. du nom, viscount de Melun, fut surnomme Charpentier, a cause u'il ne se trouvoit point d'armes qui pussent resister a l'effort de ses oups. "La pesanteur des siennes le faisoit apprehender dans les combats." Guillaume I., of name, Viscount of Melun, was named, Carpenter, because no weapon (opponents weapons that is) could be found that could resist the power his strikes. The heaviness of his (weapons) resulted in him being feared in combats". Carpenters must of, at the time, been among the most "well build" people... " per Jean P. "This is the report of Pierre, monk of S. Remi of Reims. This historian, who knew Guillaume count of Melun, assures in the fourth book of his history of the conquest of the Holy Land, speaking of the retreat of the christian army after the taking of Antioche in 1098, that this lord was of royal lineage, and was cousin of Hugues of France, count of Vermandois, brother of King Phillipe I." (long sentence!) In 1084, this King confirmed the privileges accorded by his predecessors to the Abbey of Holy Father of Melun, and to the prayer of the viscount. The name of his wife and the time of his death are not well known. He as the father of Ursion II, who follows (but it wasn't included in the copy)." Ironicly, "MELUN, (GUILLAUME DE) ... was a relative of Hugues de Vermandois, and accompanied Godefroi de Bouillon to Palestine (1096), where he distinguished himself by his bravery." This per the French Record above on page 1399-1400. It is an interesting contrast to the book called "The Normans" who decribes his efforts differently. !Based on research by John R. Carpenter, 5850 Yorkshire Ave. La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 (619 changes to 935 in 6/2000) 466-5735 Voice. E-Mail at "jrcrin001@home.com". Please submit corrections, additions, et cetera to John R. Carpenter for additions to the CARPENTER MASTER FILE. GEDCOM or hardcopy accepted. !MISC: This text (below) is part of the Internet Medieval Source Book. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history. Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use. Paul Halsall December 1997. halsall@murray.fordham.edu First Crusade - Listed in related parts ... Soon they departed from their homes in Gaul, and then formed three groups. One party of Franks, namely, Peter, the Hermit Duke Godfrey, Baldwin, his brother, and Baldwin, Count of the Mount, entered the region of Hungary. These most powerful; knights, and many others whom I do not know, went by the way which Charles ; the Great, wonderworking king of France, long ago had made,!, even to Constantinople. . . . The second party - to wit, Raymond, Count of St. Gilles, and the Bishop of Puy - entered the region of Slavonia. The third division, however, went by the ancient road to Rome. In this division were Bohemund, Richard of Principati, Robert, Count of Flanders, Robert the Norman, Hugh the Great, Everard of Puiset, Achard of Montmerle, Ysooard of Mousson, and many others. Next, they went to the port of Brindisi, or Bari, or Otranto. Then Hugh the Great, and William, son of Marchisus, took to the sea at the port of Bari and, crossing the strait, came to Durazzo. But the governor of this place, his heart touched with evil design, took these most renowned men captive immediately upon hearing that they had landed there and ordered them to be conducted carefully to the Emperor at Constantinople, where they should pledge loyalty to him. Source: August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 57. NEXT SECTION: Meanwhile Hugh reached the seacoast of Longobardy; there he sent envoys to the Governor of Durazzo, twentyfour in number, each decorated with gold and red breastplates. Along with them went COUNT CARPENTER and that Helia who had fled from the Emperor at Thessalonica. These men addressed the following message to the Governor: "Be it known to you, O Governor, that our lord, Hugh, will soon be here, bringing with him from Rome the golden banner of St. Peter; moreover, know that he is the highest leader of all the armies of France. Prepare yourself, therefore, to receive him and the army obeying him according to the dignity of his power; and gird yourself about to meet him." Source: August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 78-79. NEXT SECTION: ... With his entire band of pilgrims Godfrey withdrew to the city of Constantinople itself. There, after pitching their tents, they lodged, a strong and powerful band, protected by armor and all warlike equipment. And, behold, at the meeting Hugh, Drogo, WILLIAM CARPENTER, and Clarebold, set free by the Emperor, were present, rejoicing because of the arrival of the Duke and of his multitudes, and meeting the embrace of the Duke and of the others with many a kiss. Source: August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 80-86. NEXT SECTION: Gesta Francorum Circa 1100-1101, an anonymous writer connected with Bohemund of Antioch wrote the Gesta francorum et aliorum Hierosolymytanorum (The Deeds of the Franks) This text was used by the later writers as a source. See Also: Rosalind M. Hill, ed. and trans., Gesta francorum et aliorum Hierosolymitanorum: The Deeds of the Franks (London: 1962), [Latin text with English translation.]. The Sufferings of the Crusaders - 3. The Gesta Version. When the Armenians and Syrians, however, saw that our men were returning utterly empty-handed, they counselled together and went away through the mountains and places of which they had previous knowledge, making subtle inquiry and buying grain and other bodily sustenance. This they brought to the camp, in which hunger was great beyond measure, and they sold a single assload for eight perpre, which is worth one hundred and twenty solidi of denarii. There, indeed, many of our men died because they did not have the means wherewith to buy at such a dear price. WILLIAM CARPENTER and Peter the Hermit secretly left because of the great sorrow and misery. Tancred pursued and caught them,, and brought them back in disgrace. They gave him a pledge that they would return willingly to camp and render satisfaction to seignors. Then WILLIAM lay all that night, like an evil thing, in the tent of Bohemund. On the next day at early dawn he came shamefacedly and stood in the presence of Bohemund, who, addressing him, said, "O, the misfortune and infamy of all France, the disgrace and villainy of Gaul! O, most evil of all whom the earth endures! Why did you so vilely flee? Was it, perchance, for the reason that you wished to betray these knights and the host of Christ, as you betrayed others in Hispania?" HE was entirely silent and no speech proceeded from his mouth, Almost all those of Frankish race gathered together and humbly asked Lord Bohemund not to let anything worse befall him. He nodded, with calm countenance, and said, "To this I willingly consent for love of you, if he will swear to me with his whole heart and mind that be will never withdraw from the march to Jerusalem, whether for good or evil; and if Tancred will agree not to let anything untoward befall him, either through him or his men." When WILLIAM had heard these words, he willingly agreed, and Bohemund forthwith dismissed him. Later, indeed, CARPENTER, caught in the greatest villainy, slipped away by stealth without long delay. This poverty and wretchedness God meted out to us because of our sins. Thus in the whole army no one could find a thousand knights who had horses of the best kind. Source: August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 136-39. NEXT SECTION: Meanwhile, messengers came to camp, announcing that our ships had arrived at Joppa and that the sailors demanded that a guard be sent to hold the tower of Joppa and to give them protection at the port; for the town of Joppa had been destroyed except the castle, and that was nearly in ruins, with the exception of one tower. However, there is a harbor there, and it is the one nearest to Jerusalem, being about one day's journey distant. All of our people rejoiced when they heard the news of the ships, and they sent out Count Galdemar, surnamed Carpinellus, accompanid by twenty knights and about fifty footmen. Later, they sent Raymond Piletus with fifty knights and William of Sabran with his followers. (NOTE: Could this be Count Guilaume surnamed Carpintarius - latin for Carpenter?) Source: August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 250-56. END. !E-MAIL: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 From: "James A. Brundage" Dear Mr. Carpenter, Please forgive my tardiness in answering your query: things have been uncommonly hectic at the University for the past few weeks and this has forced me to postpone a good many other obligations as well. Sorry about that. As for William the Carpenter from Melun who participated in the first crusade, very little is known about him because scarcely any evidence survives. For what little there is, see Jonathan Riley-Smith, _The First Crusaders, 1095-1131_ (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997), pp. 43 & 226 and Marcus Bull, _Knightly Piety and the Lay Response to the First Crusade: The Limousin and Gascony, c. 970-c. 1130_ (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993), pp. 84-85. To the best of my knowledge, Riley-Smith and Bull have exhausted every scrap of evidence about the man that is known to survive. And at that, we know more about him than we do about most of the participants in the first crusade. Sorry I can't give you any more information, but I don't think there's any more information to give. James A. Brundage History & Law University of Kansas - Member of the Medieval History Ring. 6. GOUY-55270 was born about 1035 in France. Speculative individual - temporary connection. Fourth Generation 8. Ursion I DE MELUN Lord of Melun-28888 was born about 995 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France and was christened in Lord of, Melun, abt 1033 to 1084. He died 1084 in France. The Royal lineage is carried through the wife's side of the family. See father's notes. There is some speculation that he was born after 999. 12. Walter DE GOUY-55044 was born about 997 in France. Duplicative individual or son of Walter? Fifth Generation 16. Herve DE MELUN Lord of Melun-20013 was born about 950/955 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France and was christened in Lord of, Melun, 999 to abt 1033. He died about 1030/1033 in Ile De France, France. Herve married VENDOME-28994. !Herve was probably married twice and was alive in 1030 AD. However, since it is known that William "the carpenter" had his noble or royal descendancy through the female side of the line that links with Hugh Capet, King of France. Thus only one marriage is shown ... at this time. Herve's oldest son, Manasses took the side of Le Chatelain of Cambray (with Eudes, Count of Chartres who took Melun in 999) against the Bishop of this city (Melun) in 999. This means Manasses was probably from the first marriage and about 21 or so in 999. Herve then had Urison I who had Guillaume (William) "le charpentier". See the 1838 note below. Herve is the grandfather of William "the Carpenter" De Melun, a Norman Knight whose nick name gave name to our Carpenter Family. The Lordship went to the eldest son then next eldest et cetera. !IGI records. Spouse listed as "Mrs. Herve De Melun". There is an extensive listing in the IGI for De Meluns from 1030 AD to 1846. However, no organized descendancy is listed in the AF until a Philippe De Melun (AFN 9GWP-M7) born abt 1406 and that for only 5 generations. !Based on research by John R. Carpenter, 5850 Yorkshire Ave. La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 (619) 466-5735 Voice (Area Code change in 6/2000 to 935). E-Mail at "jrcrin001@home.com". Please submit corrections, additions et cetera to John R. Carpenter for additions to the CARPENTER MASTER FILE. GEDCOM or hardcopy accepted. Translation per Mike Janse for John R. Carpenter, from a 1838 French National Encyclopedia: John. I got a response from my French friend, Jean, yesterday. I'll include his entire message below. This is old French, so it was a little difficult to get the gist of it even when the words were easy to translate. Also, some sentences aren't written well so the subject of sentences is sometimes unclear. My French friend even had to speculate about some of this. So if the sentences are difficult to understand, its only partly my fault- the text is just hard to follow. Here goes- Melun, a french city on the river Seine... What Caesar said of Melun in his commentaries, testifies that it is very old, and that it was very important in its time. The Normands sacked it in 845. King Hugues Capet gave it (Melun) to Bouchard, his favorite. Under the reign of Robert, Eudes, the count of Champagne, bought the city, and the king took it back for the viscount in the year 999. Le Chatelain and his wife, who had sold the city, were hung. Melun, ancient family (or household). 1. The first of this household... is Josselin I. by name, viscount of Melun, who reigned among the great lords in the court of kings Hughes Capet, and Robert. In 998, he gave the village of Noisy-le-Sec to the monestary of Saint Maur-des-Fossez, where he took upon himself the monk's habit, and where he died March 19, (no year)... 2. Herve, viscount of Melun, who was still living in 1030 by report of the author of Miracles of Saint Liesne, and who was the father of Ursion, who follows (next section). 3. Ursion I. ... he had Guillaume I. who follows; and Manasses who took the side of Le Chatelain of Cambray against the bishop of this city. 4. (Here I'll insert my friend Jean's letter) Date: 4/22/98 9:58 AM From: Jean Pradelle Mike, Here is my take on the meaning of this phrase. This is really old French by the way. "Guillaume I. du nom, viscount de Melun, fut surnomme Charpentier, a cause qu'il ne se trouvoit point d'armes qui pussent resister a l'effort de ses coups. La pesanteur des siennes le faisoit apprehender dans les combats." Guillaume I., of name, Viscount of Melun, was named, Carpenter, because no weapon (opponents weapons that is) could be found that could resist the power of his strikes. The heaviness of his (weapons) resulted in him being feared in combats". Carpenters must of, at the time, been among the most "well build" people... " Jean P. This is the report of Pierre, monk of S. Remi of Reims. This historian, who knew Guillaume count of Melun, assures in the fourth book of his history of the conquest of the Holy Land, speaking of the retreat of the christian army after the taking of Antioche in 1098, that this lord was of royal lineage, and was cousin of Hugues of France, count of Vermandois, brother of king Phillipe I. (long sentence!) In 1084, this king confirmed the privileges accorded by his predecessors to the abbey of Holy Father of Melun, and to the prayer of the viscount. The name of his wife and the time of his death are not well known. He was the father of Ursion II, who follows (but it wasn't included in the copy)." 17. VENDOME-28994 was born about 960 in France. 24. Walter DE GOUY-57286 was born 967 in Valois, France. !Walter DE GOUY Sex: M Birth: 0967 Valois, France Father: Walter DE GOUY Mother: Mrs. Adele DE GOUY Film Number: 2034342 !Was the following family group a descendant of this Walter de Gouy? Catharina UTEN GOYE (AFN: 82JB-8S) Sex: F Birth: Abt 1300 Of Houten, Utrecht, Neth. Death: Bef. 01 1351 May Father: Gijsbrecht UTEN GOYEN (AFN: F8SB-T5) Mother: Margaretha Van BOSINCHEM (AFN: 80JT-ZC) Spouse: Hendrik, Heer Van VIANEN (AFN: 82JB-7M) !Gijsbrecht UTEN GOYEN (AFN: F8SB-T5) Birth: Abt. 1275 Spouse: Margaretha Van BOSINCHEM (AFN: 80JT-ZC) !Maria VAN UTEN GOYE (Film # 1395539) Birth: 1268 Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands Father: Gijsbert VAN UTEN GOYE Mother: Margaretha VAN TEIJLINGEN !Maria Van UTEN GOYE (AFN: FHCD-Q2) Sex: F Birth: Abt 1268 Of, Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands Death: Bef 1312 Father: Gijsbert Van UTEN GOYE (AFN: 1FK7-2KH) Mother: Margaretha Van TEIJLINGEN (AFN: 1FK7-2MW) Spouse: Dirk Van Den WALE (AFN: 8GFP-SL) !Gijsbert Van UTEN GOYE (AFN: 1FK7-2KH) Birth: Abt 1238 Of, Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlands Spouse: Margaretha Van TEIJLINGEN (AFN: 1FK7-2MW) Sixth Generation 32. Josselin I DE MELUN Lord of Melun-29004 was born about 912 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France. He died 19 Mar 998/999 in Ile De France, France. !NAME: Josselin III Count de Bassigny 922 to 931 then who was the Bishop of Langres AND Josselin I Lord of Melun. THE QUESTION IS ... ARE THESE TWO THE SAME PERSON? SEE BELOW. CONNECTION TO THESE TWO IS SPECULATIVE. !"King Hugues Capet gave it (Melun) to Bouchard, his favorite. Under the reign of Robert, Eudes, the count of Champagne, bought the city, and the king took it back for the viscount in the year 999. Le Chatelain and his wife, who had sold the city, were hung. 1. The first of this household... is Josselin I. by name, viscount of Melun, who reigned among the great lords in the court of Kings Hughes Capet, and Robert. In 998, he gave the village of Noisy-le-Sec to the monestary of Saint Maur-des-Fossez, where he took upon himself the monk's habit, and where he died March 19, (no year)..." (998 0r 999?) His death probably set off the feud in the family between Manasses, who took the side of Le Chatelain, who was his grandson and Herve, his rightful heir. Per 1838 French Natioanl Encyclopedia. (page 1399-1400). (NOTE: Robert II, reigned from 996 to 1031 as King of France.) !The current speculation is that Herve married a daughter of Bouchard and Josselin was given the title & honors of Lord of Melun. Thus the Royal Lineage was passed down through the mother's side. This marriage of two children was probably for polictical & practical reasons. Her name is not known. The tale, if correct, goes something like this: Josselin, for what ever reason, joined his family with Bouchard (Count of Melun, of Corbeil and of Vendome I (he is known of this name) who had a large part of the good graces of Hugues Capet, the King of France. To cement the union between the two houses, children were married and lands & title were given to Josselin, who became the First Lord of Melun of this hereditary line. In 997 the King, Hugues Capet, died. The claim of hereditary, from father to eldest child was confirmed by French law when the son of Hugues Capet, Robert, took the title of King of France in 996. On 26 Feburary 998 (or 999) when Josselin I died, his grandson Manasses supported by Eudes, count of Chartres and the mayor of Melun took control claiming the important river castle & village. They did not hold it long. King Robert, along with Bouchard, lay siege in 999 and forced the revoltionaries of hereditary rights to pay with their lives. The mayor & Eudes were hung with many others, but there is no further mention of Manasses. The Title of Lord (Viscount) of Melun went to Herve, then Ursion then William "the carpenter." (jrc 5/98). SEE ADDITIONAL DATA BELOW! !BOOK: "Europaische Stammtafeln, Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europaischen Staaten - Neue Folge - Herausgegeben von detlev Schwennicke - Band III - Tielband 4 - by Verlag Von J. A. Stargardt 1979 in Marburg, Germany. Book is in german. Tafel 729 B Les Comtes de Bassigny. Hugo quidam illustris 881. (started reign in 881 - He had 3 children). 1) Hugues um 900 - Comte de Bassigny - (b.) 881 IV 906 (died). 3) Arembert 881. 2) Gosselin 906 - Cte de Bassigny - (b.) 881, um 900,906. Gosselin #2 above had 4 children: 1) Hugues 906/37 - Cte de Bassigny de Bologne et d'Andelot, (died abt.) 941. (He married) Gertrude 936. (He had 2 children). a) Gosselin (died) 950/52, 937 abt v St-Geosmes. b) Tochter (daughter who married) Hugues van Laon 961. 2) Gosselin 922/31 Bf v Langres (Bishop of Langres). (NOTE he had to have been the youngest male child to have received the last title of Count in 922 - He must have been very young and gave it up to be a monk.) 3) Waldricus 906. 4) Tochter (daughter who married) Roger II - Cte de Laon 926 vertrieben 931 Comte de Douai, 941 Cte de Bassigny (died) 942. (They had 1 child) a) Hugues - Cte de Bassigny (died) 25,VIII 961 (25 August 961) (buried) Reims, St-Remi. The father of Roger (who married #4 Tochter) was: Roger I - Comte de Laon (died) 926 (and married) Helvide. !The BOOK "European Royal Families" or "Europaische Stammtafeln" in german has the Hugo (listed above) as Comte de Bassigny and is listed as Hugues I graaf van Bassigny in another section. This Hugues I was noted as the son of Gosselin I van Melun. Gosselin I was related in some way (brother or cousin?) to Donat I who married Landree van Paris whose father was Bego II - graaf van Paris. The van Paris Royal line goes back to the early 500s. As mentioned above Josselin or Gosselin "took upon himself the monk's habit." He took up his religious habit at the monestary of Saint Maur-des-Fossez where in 998 he gave the village of Noisy-le-Sec to that monestary. This means he was not a simple monk but one that had fortune and power. Was he Gosselin III who was Count de Bassigny 922 to 931 and who became a monk in 931/932 AD? A careful reading of the above mentioned book, it appears that he may have out lived his brothers and sisters offspring by about 961 AD. By this time he was the Bishop of Langres. As Bishop he became a advisor of Bouchard I of Vendome and Hugues Capet the King of France. Thus he was intitled lands and rights and became Josselin I - Lord of Melun in 997 for his service to the French Crown and his relationship to Bouchard I Vendome . 3/2000 JRC. Based on research by John R. Carpenter, 5850 Yorkshire Ave. La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 (619) 466-5735 Voice (Area Code changes to 935 in 6/2000). E-Mail at "jrcrin001@juno.com" or "jrcrin001@home.com". Please submit corrections, additions et cetera to John R. Carpenter for additions to the CARPENTER MASTER FILE. GEDCOM or hardcopy accepted. !MISC: The Catholic Encyclopedia - Langres (LINGON). This record does not list Josselin or Gosselin as a Bishop. Quoted in partial is ... " Betto (790-820), who helped to draw up the capitularies of Charlemagne; Venerable Isaac (859-80), author of a collection of canons; Venerable Argrin (889-909); ** Blessed Bruno of Roucy (980-1015), who brought in the monks of Cluny to reform the abbeys of the diocese; Venerable Lambert (1015-30), who ceded to King Robert of France the lordship and county of Dijon, in 1016; Venerable Gauthier of Burgundy (1163-79) ..." ** Does this mean that Josselin died by 980 AD or was his name Blessed Bruno and died 1015? Note the gaps in the Bishops of record. A Bassigny is mentioned as co-founding "The Abbey of Morimond, the fourth foundation of Citeaux, was established in 1125 by Odolric, lord of Aigremont, and Simon, Count of Bassigny ..." SEE: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08789c.htm !NOTE: Langres is a town in the Haute Marne area of France or the Champange Region. Langres comes from the Gallic tribal area called Lingones (civitas Lingonum, Langres). SEE: The following web page has great information about Langres but it is in French (An English version is to be added later) http://www.paysdelangres.com/uk/index.htm 48. Walter DE GOUY-57321 was born 936 in Valois, France. He married Adele-55301 on 963 in Valois, France. !Walter DE GOUY Sex: M Birth: 0936 Valois, France Father: Raoul DE GOUY Mother: Mrs. Eldegarde DE GOUY Film Number: 1985443 49. Adele-55301 was born 943 in Anjou, France. !Mrs. Adele DE GOUY Sex: F Birth: 943 Anjou, , France Father: Fulk, Mother: Mrs. Fulk Film Number: 1903918 Mrs. Adele DE GOUY Marriage: 0963 Valois, France Film Number: 2034342 Seventh Generation 64. Gosselin II DE BASSIGNY-57338 was born about 860 in of, Bassigny, France and was christened in Count of, Bassigny, in 906. He died about 906. SEE: Notes of son Josselin De Melun. 96. Raoul OR Ralph GOUY Valeran de Vexin-54413 was born about 895 in of, Gouy, OR, Amiens and was christened in Valeran I, Count of, Vexin. He died about 942. Raoul married Hildegarde DE of FLANDERS-54412 on 934 in Flanders, France. NAME: Raoul or Ralph of Gouy became Valeran I, Count of Vexin. !NOTES: Raoul de GOUY Pedigree Resource File - Compact Disc #7 Pin #327723. Sex: M Birth: abt 0890 Death: 0936 Father: Hucbold of OSTREVANT Disc #7 Pin #327724 Mother: Helwise of FRIULI Disc #7 Pin #327725 Personal Information: Title: Count !E-MAIL: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" I was asked to shed what light I could on the origins of the Flemish Carpentier line discussed by the genealogist Jean le Carpentier in the 1600s. From my Medieval Carpenter subscription letters..... ... all that is known of Gouy and its lords comes from the work of a late 9th century Frankish chronicler, Flodoard. His surviving history is known as ANNALES DE FLODOARD. His work is particularly valuable because his described contemporary events. Gouy in Latin was Gaugiaco. The individual who held the original feudal fief of Gouy in the 900s was a Rodulfi de Gaugiaco of Ralph of Gouy. Ralph was the son of d'Heluis who remarried a Count Roger de Laon. Ralph of Gouy had a son Ralph (Rodulfum filium Rodulfi de Gaugiaco). Ralph made his historical debut in the struggle against the Normans under Rollo. Later the Normans were given their duchy and swore loyalty to the King of France. Ralph served in this war under Count Herbert of Vermandois. According to Flodoard, Ralph himself was a titled count (comes). Ralph's father is unnamed in the history. However it seems logical to many that Ralph must be the descendant of Ralph the Count of Cambrai (b. 865), he himself the son of Count Baldwin "Bras der Fer", the progenitor of the Flemish royal house. Count Baldwin's wife (Princess Judith) was the daughter of the King of France. After peace was made with the Normans, conflict erupted between Ralph's son and the sons of Count Herbert. This historical incident seems in part the origins of the French literary epic RAOUL DE CAMBRAI. The exact geographical location of Gouy is a matter of scholarly debate, as is much else in Flodoard. Most agree however that the present Gouy near Cambrai is the location in question. The problem remains that the knight Roger of Gouy (c. 1036) who was the progenitor of the Cambrai Carpentier line and the time (943) of the son or sons of Ralph of Gouy is a good century. Another problem is the father of Count Ralph of Gouy. Still, this account of the origins of the Carpenter family is the most probable I have seen. The original book is Les Annales de Flodoard, Paris, 1905. Bruce Carpenter. !E-MAIL: 2 Mar 2000 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" In Matarasso's Recherches Historiques et Litteraires Sur Raoul de Cambrai, Paris, 1962, which discusses the indentification of Gouy and the problematic literary epic associated with the name Raoul de Gouy, the point is made that Gouy could never have been anything more than a minor fief, a small castle-fort in a strategically located rural crossroads. The fief could have easily passed from father to a son. If the historian Jean le Carpentier found evidence of an ancient feudal Gouy lineage, which could be dated with certainty from the early 1000s in abbey charters, this begins to beg a conclusion. The Raoul de Gouy in ANNALES DE FLODOARD is the only mention of a Gouy lineage in the French historical record. The possibility of Carpentier's "seigneurs de Gouy" as being the later descendants of 943 Raoul in Flodoard seems very worthy of consideration. Year 943 to year to 1036 is gap however. Likewise it seems obvious from Flodoard that 943 Raoul was the son of "comte" Raoul, and therefore the brother of Baudouin II de Flandre. Thus all descend from Baldwin the Iron Arm. Iron Arm's wife Judith was, I think, the grand daughter of Charlemagne (?). This seems a reasonable `origins' of the Carpentiers of Flanders. I think this is the origin of the family that Jean le Carpentier surely had in mind. When he mentioned the "ancient and illustrious Seigneurs de Gouy" he must have meant his remarks for those who knew their early Frankish history, and that means those who read and knew their Flodoard. BC. !E-MAIL: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 "Bruce E. Carpenter" The following are results of an investigation to expand on the Dutch historian Jean le Carpentier's genesis of the Carpenter family, from its beginnings, to its move to England after 1200. All data is from known historical works. 1. Baldwin I "Bras der Fer", Count of Flanders, d. 870. 2. Son of above, Ralph, Count of Cambrai and likely Lord of Gouy, b. 865. 3. Son of above. Ralph de Gouy, c. 943. Lost title as Count of Cambrai, possible subject of literary masterpiece Raoul de Cambrai. 4. Seigneurs de Gouy. A lineage of Lords of Gouy existed in abbey records according to Dutch historian Carpentier. 5. Roger de Gouy, Lord of Gouy, c. 1096. Name appears in a tournament list. 6. Renaud Carpentier. Direct descendant of Roger, and with his brother Barthelemy, were the first credible individuals to use Carpenter as a surname. 7. Descendant of above. Godefroy le Carpentier, Sire de Daniel, c.1200. His descendants leave for England. 8. Ralph Carpenter (Charpenter/Carpentier), merchant of foreign origins active in Norfolk, England c. 1225. He appears with William Charpenter, brother or son, in 1232. Both are separtely named Carpenter in the same historical document ,and therefore were the first recorded individuals to use Carpenter as a surname in England. 9. William Charpenter, merchant of foreign origins, c. 1232. Appears with Ralph. William owned extensive property and was active in the trade fairs in Norfolk. 10. Son of the above. John Charpenter, c. 1232. BC (Please note that the lineage above is different from what is geneerally known. JRC 3/2000) MORE: More Bruce ... If you look back at Jean le Carpentier, he tells us that the Carpentiers from their Gouy line were from the area of Arras, Honnecourt etc: which was Gouy of Cambrai (15 miles due south of Cambrai). Remember there are several Gouy locations. Gouy of Ostrevant is a good distance from the Carpentiers in Gouy of Cambrai. I have seen your data before, and while I really don't know, I suspect parts of it are a Germanized borrowing from Flodoard. Gouy-en-Ostrevant? Would like the source (the book) this genealogy comes from. I found yet another line of Seignuers of Gouy in Actes des Comtes de Namur (Bruxelles, 1936) for 1188. This Gouy-lez-Pieton is also too far from Cambrai. A trip to a good library in France would (will) clear up computer database generated confusion. BC MORE: More Bruce ... Fri, 21 Apr 2000 From: Bruce E. Carpenter Dr. Warlop in his THE FLEMISH NOBILITY brings up a number of points that merit consideration for the problem of the noble origins of the Carpentier from the Lords of Gouy, discussed by 17th century Jean le Carpentier. Firstly the original Raoul de Gouy found in the ancient historical work ANNALES DE FLODOARD had a wife who married Count Roger of Laon at his death. It is right to suppose that that lands of her first husband Raoul, and his fief of Gouy, passed into the hands of Count Roger. In the Annales the son Raoul, of the first Roaul of Gouy, is not refrerred to as Rodulfi de Gaugiaco, but rather Rodulfum, filium Rodulfi de Gaugiaco. In a remarriage the lands of a noble passed into the possession of the new husband. This was feudal custom. According to Warlop, and all the other experts on Flemish nobility quoted by him, the rule is that the eldest son always takes the name of his father. Therefore from the first half of the 10th century, when Count Roger should have acquired the fief of Gouy, to 1036 when the name of Roger of Gouy is encountered as the ancestor of the Carpentiers, only a century had elapsed. Roger of Gouy was the Lord of Gouy. Jean le Carpentier does not name the descendants of Roger de Gouy as Sire de Gouy. They do not bear the name Roger and bear names like Barthelemy and Renaud. They must have been lesser sons. Anyone with such a title in the 11th century (Sire de Gouy), according to Warlop, certainly had noble ancestors centuries earlier. Count Roger was from the royal Carolingian line of Everard. That the Carpentiers descended from the Everard line certainly deserves consideration, and strikes me now as more plausible that from Baldwin the Iron Arm. The original Everard was an Everard of Fruili. Fruili was an Italian place name. The Carolingians had invaded and claimed rule in Italy. Perhaps someone could find something more about the Everard line. Cordially, Bruce Carpenter 97. Hildegarde DE of FLANDERS-54412 was born about 934 in of, Gand, Flandre Oriental, Belgium. She died 10 Apr 990 in of, Flanders, France and was buried in Abdijkerk Egmond, Noord Holland, Neth.. !BIRTH: Of, Gand, Flandre Orientale, Belgium BURIAL: Abdijkerk Egmond O/D Hoef, Noord Holland, Neth. SEE: Below under "another possible connection ..." !E-MAIL: Lords of Gouy Wed, 10 Nov 1999 resent From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" Hi Bruce ! >Does anyone have information on children >of Baldwin III of Flanders, in particular >Raoul de Gouy. Baldwin III, co-count of Flanders [with his father, whom he predeceased.], b.ca 940, d.962; m.961 Matilda (d.1008) dau.of Duke Hermann Billung of Saxony. His father was Ct Arnulf I "the Great" of Flanders, b.885/90, d.964; m.1st NN; m.2d 934 Adele (d.960) dau.of Cte Heribert de Vermandois; all kids were by the 2d marriage. Baldwin III and Matilda Billung had the following kids: 1.Arnulf II the Young, Ct of Flanders and Boulogne, b.961/2, d.987, bur Ghent; m.ca 968 Rozela=Suzanna of Ivrea (d.1003). He was the ancestor of Counts of Flanders & Hainaut, also probably (via his grandson Eudes, Count de Cambrai) the ancestor of Counts de Saint-Pol and Counts de Brienne. 2.Jean de Conteville (John de Bourg), Earl of Comyn, Baron of Toursbourg, b.ca.964/969. He was the ancestor of the family de Burgo/de Burgh (Viscounts de Conteville, Counts de Mortain, Earls of Cornwall, Barons/Earls of Connaught, Earls of Ulster, Lords of Warkworth). 3.Bertha of Flanders, b.ca.1008. I think that Raoul de Gouy was not a son of Baldwin III. The family de Gouy had another ancestry - from Hucbald, Count de Ostervant. They were Counts de Ostervant, Amiens, Vexin, Seigneurs de Crepy and Valois. Ostervant passed from this family (by marriage of Adela de Vexin [dau.of Raoul III "the_Great", of Valois de Crepi, Vitry, Amiens and Vexin] and Herbert IV, Count de Vermandois) to the family de Vermandois, later (also by marriage with Eleonore de Vermandois) to Geoffroy (1147-1163), grandson of Baldwin III [Count of Flanders]. Another possible connection between 'de Flanders' and 'de Gouy' is via Cambrai. One of branches of 'de Flanders' was the family of Counts de Cambrai. Raoul I (d.944), Count de Valois & d'Amiens, son of Hucbald de Osrevant [ancestor of 'de Gouy'] had nickname 'de Cambrai'. His son Raoul (Ralph) de Gouy, fl.ca.926/933, Count of Ostervant, Valois and Vexin, was married to Hildegarde of Flanders (b.ca.934-d.990), sister of Baldwin III. Therefore Raoul was the brother-in-law (not son) of Baldwin III. Raoul and Hildegarde were the ancestors of Counts of Ostrevant, Amiens, Valois and Vexin, Viscounts de Tracy(Tracey), Lords of Sudeley(co.Gloucester), Toddington (co.Gloucester), Chilvers Coton(co.Warwick) and Burton Dasset (co.Warwick). regards, aeg. 98. Fulk-55271 was born about 920 in of, Anjou, France. Eighth Generation 128. Hugo OR Hugues I BASSIGNY Graaf Bassigny-57287 was born about 835 in of, Bassigny, France and was christened in Count of, Bassigny. He died 881 in France. !NOTES: Hugo quidam illustris 881. Bassigny is in the Haute Marne region in the northeastern part of France. 192. Hucbald OR Hucbold GOUY-54417 was born about 860 in of, Ostrevant, France. He married Helwise OR Heilwich-54418. Hucbold of OSTREVANT Disc #7 Pin #327724. 193. Helwise OR Heilwich-54418 was born about 860 in of, Friuli. !NAME: Helwise or Heilwich or Heluis. Helwise of FRIULI Disc #7 Pin #327725. 194. Arnoul I, Count FLANDERS-57341 was born about 889 in of, Flanders, France. He died 27 Mar 964. Arnoul married Adele (Alice or Alix) DE VERMANDOIS-57294 on 932/934 in of, Flanders, Belgium. NAME: Arnoul I, Count Of /FLANDERS/. 195. Adele (Alice or Alix) DE VERMANDOIS-57294 was born about 910/915 in of, Vermandois, Normandy, France and was christened in Countess of, Flanders. She died 10 Oct 958/960 in Bruges, France and was buried in St Pierre Abby, Gand, France. Ninth Generation 256. Gosselin I DE BASSIGNY van Melun-55275 was born about 810 in France. !The BOOK "European Royal Families" or "Europaische Stammtafeln" in german has the Hugo as Comte de Bassigny and is listed as Hugues I graaf van Bassigny in another section. This Hugues I was noted as the son of Gosselin I van Melun. Gosselin I was related to Donat I (b. abt 800/805) who married Landree van Paris whose father was Bego II - graaf van Paris. The van Paris Royal line goes back to the early 500s. This family was closely related to Langres. Donat I is believed to either a brother or a relative but not the father. See below. !BOOK: "Europaische Stammtafeln, Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europaischen Staaten - Neue Folge - Herausgegeben von detlev Schwennicke - Band III - Tielband 4 - by Verlag Von J. A. Stargardt 1979 in Marburg, Germany. Book is in german. Tafel 729 B Les Comtes de Bassigny. Hugo quidam illustris 881. (started reign in 881 - He had 3 children). 1) Hugues um 900 - Comte de Bassigny - (b.) 881 IV 906 (died). 3) Arembert 881. 2) Gosselin 906 - Cte de Bassigny - (b.) 881, um 900,906. Gosselin #2 above had 4 children: 1) Hugues 906/37 - Cte de Bassigny de Bologne et d'Andelot, (died abt.) 941. (He married) Gertrude 936. (He had 2 children). a) Gosselin (died) 950/52, 937 abt v St-Geosmes. b) Tochter (daughter who married) Hugues van Laon 961. 2) Gosselin 922/31 Bf v Langres (Bishop of Langres). 3) Waldricus 906. 4) Tochter (daughter who married) Roger II - Cte de Laon 926 vertrieben 931 Comte de Douai, 941 Cte de Bassigny (died) 942. (They had 1 child) a) Hugues - Cte de Bassigny (died) 25,VIII 961 (25 August 961) (buried) Reims, St-Remi. The father of Roger (who married #4 Tochter) was: Roger I - Comte de Laon (died) 926 (and married) Helvide. Please remember the Vikings sacked Melun in 845 AD! How did this affect this situation? Did Donat I die about 845 giving the title to Gosselin I? !MISC: Was the following person related? Father? Amadee (Count in the Payn) De LANGRES b. abt. 790 or 816 ,,France. (2 entries) Marriage: "Mrs. Langres" married Abt. 849 Of,Melun,France Source Information: Film Number: 1903945. His Father: Hunroch Count Of The TERNOIS (Disc #6) Hunroch was born abt. 760 Living in 839. Father: Berenger born abt. 730 who was noted as "an East Frank." Disc #6 Pin #946102. His Mother: Engeltrude Of PARIS Born abt. 765. (related to Bego van Paris?) Engeltrude's Father: Begue Of PARIS Disc #6 Pin #946107 Born: 738 Died: 816. Begue's Father: Girard, COUNT OF PARIS b. 708 Living in 775. Disc#6 Pin #946783 Begue's Mother: Rotrou b. abt. 716 Her father was Carloman and her mother was Alard. Disc #6 Pin #946781 Engeltrude's Mother: Aupais Born 738. Aupais' mother was Himeltrude a concubine. ***** Aupais' father was Charlemagne (b. 2 Apr 742 and d. 28 Jan 813/814). King Charlemagne's parents were Pepin "the Short" King of the Franks and Bertrada of Laon. PLEASE NOTE THE CONNECTION TO "Laon." Disc #6 Pin #946108 SEE: Film Number: 1985633. There was another Langres about the same time in history: Burchard De LANGRES born about 790 who was "Avocat de Langres." This from the Pedigree Resource File Compact Disc #2. 384. Hucbald-55258 was born about 840 in Tournai, Belgium. !HUCBALD Sex: M Birth: Abt. 0840 Tournai, Belgium Film Number: 1985297 388. Baudouin II FLANDERS Count ofFlanders-57346 was born about 865 in of, Flanders, France. Tenth Generation 776. Baldwin I "Bras der Fer" FLANDERS Count ofFlanders-55278 was born about 840 in of, Flanders, France and was christened in Count of, Flanders. He died about 870. Eleventh Generation 1552. Baudouin I DE FLANDERS-57291 was born about 810 in of, Flanders, France. Index Name ID Generation , Adele 49 6 , Fulk 98 7 , Helwise OR Heilwich 193 8 , Hucbald 384 9 BASSIGNY, Gosselin I DE van Melun 256 9 BASSIGNY, Gosselin II DE 64 7 BASSIGNY, Hugo OR Hugues I Graaf Bassigny 128 8 CARPENTER, Godwin Seigneur de Gouy 1 1 CARPENTER, William 2 2 FLANDERS, Arnoul I, Count 194 8 FLANDERS, Baldwin I "Bras der Fer" Count ofFlanders 776 10 FLANDERS, Baudouin I DE 1552 11 FLANDERS, Baudouin II Count ofFlanders 388 9 FLANDERS, Hildegarde DE of 97 7 GOUY, 6 3 GOUY, Hucbald OR Hucbold 192 8 GOUY, Raoul OR Ralph Valeran de Vexin 96 7 GOUY, Walter DE 12 4 GOUY, Walter DE 24 5 GOUY, Walter DE 48 6 GOUYE, Lady DE 3 2 MELUN, Herve DE Lord of Melun 16 5 MELUN, Josselin I DE Lord of Melun 32 6 MELUN, Ursion I DE Lord of Melun 8 4 MELUN, William "the Carpenter" DE Knight 4 3 VENDOME, 17 5 VERMANDOIS, Adele (Alice or Alix) DE 195 8