Notes for Walter (1) GIFFARD: 28th ggf of Gordon Fisher
"WALTER GIFFARD, d. 1084, Lord of Longueville, a companion of Williamthe Conqueror at the battle of Hastings, 1066, son of Osbern deBolbec, seigneur of Longueville-sur-Scie in Normandy 1028-1035, andDuvelina, sister of the Duchess Gunnora; m. Agnes, dau. of GirardFlatel." --- Weis & Sheppard, *Ancestral Roots ... *, 7th Edition, 1992, p157. However, Moriarty, in the article cited below, gives Walter'sdeath year as 1086, and also conjectures that he was born between 1005and 1015.
"The time honored pedigrees of the great house of Giffard, the name isone of those rude nicknames in which the Normans delighted and may betranslated into the vernacular as "fat face", based upon thestatements of Robert de Torigny (or rather on those of hisinterpolator), declare that Walter Giffard, who was present atHastings, was the son of Osbern de Bolbec and Wevie, sister of Gunora,the "Danish wife" of Duke Richard the Fearless (cf. Mr. Gepffrey Whitein *The Genealogist*, n.s., vol. xxxvii, pp. 57-65). (P) Walter wasan old man, according to the standards of age at this period, at thetime of the battle, but, as he was active on that occasion, he couldhardly have been much over sixty years of age, and was probablysomewhere between fifty and sixty. Accordingly, I suggest that he wasborn somewhere between 1005 and 1015. Granting that he was an "oldman" in 1066, it still stretches chronolgy unduly to make him a son ofOsbern and Wevie, who must have flourished well back in the tenthcentury. One cannot but feel that a generation has been omittedbetween Osbern and old Walter, although there can be little doubt thatWalter descended from Osbern, as he too was lord of Bolbec. ..... " --- G Andrews Moriarty, Jr, "The Early Giffards" *New EnglandHistorical and Genealogical Register*, v 105 (Oct 1951) 292-294;Correction: v 106 (Jan 1952) 76; reprinted in *English Origins of NewEngland Families*, v III, selected by Gary Boyd Roberts, Baltimore MD(Genealogical Publishing Co) 1984, p 134-137. Moriarty argues thatbetween Osbern de Bolbec and the Walter Giffard who married dau. ofGerard Flaitel, there was another Walter, whom he suggests should becalled Walter de Bolbec, wife's name unknown. According to Moriarty,this Walter is the one who appears as a witness on a charter datedbetween 1035 and 1048 as brother of Godfrey Vicomte of Arques, whereasWalter GIFFARD who was at the battle of Hastins is separately awitness on the same charter.
"The Giffards were of the inner circle of the Conqueror's barons,related to him by the marriage of their first known ancestor Osbern deBolebec to Wevie, sister of Gunnor, wife or concubine of Richard I,Duke of Normandy (d. 996), and great-grandmother of the Conqueror.Robert of Torigny says that Walter Giffard, Lord of Bolebec andLongueville, who was with the Conqueror at Hasting in 1066, was son ofOsbern and Wevie, but Mr. G. A. Moriarty argues on chronologicalgrounds that he was their grandson, the son of another Walter theirson. (P) Walter Giffard who was at Hastings had (with a younger sonWilliam Giffard, d. 1129, Chancellor of England and Bishop ofWinchester) a son and namesake, who seems to have been made Earl ofBuckingham, who died childless in 1164 [Footnote: "*CompletePeerage*, ii. 386-7] At his death there remained, however, two lesserbut still baronial lines of Giffard, that of Brimpsfield inGloucestershire and that of Fonthill in Wiltshire, whose feudalconnections with the Earls of Buckingham and with each other show thatthey must have been related, though the precise relationship has notbeen proved (P) The ancestor of the Brimpsfield line was OsbernGiddard, who 'came to the Conquest' and was tenant in chief ofBrimpsfield and many other manors in 1086. Mr. Moriarty suggests thathe was a younger brother of Walter, who was at Hastings, but proof islacking. ..... The other baronial line of Giffard, that of Fonthill,Wiltshire, which Berenger Giffard held in 1086, is linked with theBrimpsfield line by the fact that Gerard Giffard of Fonthill held aknight's fee under Elis Giffard of Brimpsfield in 1166, while bothfamilies obtained large feoffments of land from William Giffard (d.1129), Bishop of Winchester, who was certainly a brother of Walter,Earl of Buckingham. The Fonthill main line expired in 1220 but it isalmost certain that Peter Giffard, who was granted Chillington,Staffordshire, about 1178, belonged to it, though his exact descentcannot be ascertained. From that day to this Chillington has remainedin the male line of Giffard and the present Mr. T. A. W. Giffard ofChillington is nineteenth in descent from Peter. (P) The group ofknightly Devonshire families of Giffard, from one of which the Earl ofHalsbury descends, were doubtless one family, but there is so far nodemonstration that theur probable common ancestor Walter Giffard, whoheld Aveton Giffard in the first half of the twelfth entury, was akinto the Earls of Buckingham, though his Christian name suggests it andGeneral Wrottesley has conjectured that he may have been of theFonthill branch." --- Anthony Richard Wagner, *English Genealogy*, Oxford, 2ndedition enlarged, 1972, p 67, 69
Presumably the following applies to a descendant of this WalterGiffard: "A.D. 1103. A great dissension arose between king Henry and archbishopAnselm, the archbishop refusing to consent to the giving ofinvestitures by the king, and to consecrate or communicate with thoseto whom the king had already given churches, because the apostolicpope had interdicted this as well to himself as to all others.Wherefore the king commanded Gerard, the archbishop of York, toconsecrate the bishops to whom he had given investitures, namely,William Giffard and Roger, who was his chaplain, to whom the king hadalready given the church of Salisbury. Gerard performed the commandof the king, but William set both that and the benediction ofarchbishop Gerard at defiance, having regard to the justice of thecase. Wherefore, by the command of the king, he was despoiled of allhis possessions and sent out of the kingdom; the others remainedunconsecrated. ..... In the province called Berkshire, in a placecalled Heamstede, blood was seen by many to flow out of the ground. Inthe same year, on the 3d ides of August [11th Aug.], a great storm ofwind arose, which caused damage to the fruits of the earth throughoutEngland, such as the men then alive had never seen in past times." --- Florence of Worcester (died c 1117), *A History of the Kings ofEngland* (OR: *The Chronicle of Florence of Worcester*), trans JosephStephenson, 1853 (reprinted by Llanerch Enterprises, Felinfach,Lampeter, Dyfed, Wales SA48 8PJ, 1980s (?)), p 162-163
"Walter Giffard "the elder," as he is styled in the chronicles ofOrderic Vitalis and William de Jumieges, flourished between the years1035 and 1084. The story of his relationship to the Ducal House ofNormandy is told by the latter historian, who relates how the EarlRichard, being lodged in the house of one of his foresters during ahunting expedition, was so struck with the beauty of the forester'swife, he ordered her to be conducted at night to his chamber. Theforester sadly recounted these orders to his wife, who, being avirtuous woman, consoled him by saying that she would put in her placeher sister Gunnora, who was younger and much better looking thanherself. This was done, and the Duke, after he was informed of thedeception passed upon him, was rejoiced to find that he had notcommitted so great a sin. Gunnora afterwards lived with him for manyyears as his mistress, until, wishing to promote Robert, one his sonsby her, to the Archbishopric of Rouen, the Earl was informed that thecanonical laws would not permit an illegimate son to be consecrated,and for that reason he married Gunnora according to Christian rites,and in this way legitimated all his offsrping by her. "The story "*si non e vero e ben trovato*," but it bears too close aresemblance to a well-known scriptural incident, and was probablyinvented by the monks to embellish the reputation of Gunnora after shehad become Duchess of Normandy. Like our own Queen ElizabethWoodville, in somewhat similar circumstances, Gunnora had a bevy ofyounger sisters whom she promoted by marrying them to the Duke, and inthis way the third sister, Avelina, was given in marriage to Osbern deBolebec, Lord of Longueville, by whom she had Walter Giffard thefirst, and Godfrey, father of William d'Arques. "Walter married one of the daughters of Girard Flatel or Fleitel,and had issue Walter Giffard the second and several daughters, one ofwhom, Rohais, married Richard, the son of Earl Gilbert (de Brionne)[footnote: *Histoire des Normands*, by William of Jumie`ges, chapters36 and 37. The reader will note the origin of the names of Osbern andGerard afterwards borne by the Giffards. Gunnora is the DanishGunnor, from which is derived Guinevra, Guinevere, and finallyGenevieve."]. As Duke Richard died in 996, even allowing for the factthat Osbern de Bolebec was a mere youth at the date of his marriagewith Avelina, Walter Giffard the first must have been far advanced inlife at the date of the conquest of England in 1066, and this agreeswith all we have been told of him from other sources. He firstappears in 1035, as a companion of his brother-in-law, Hugh deGournay, in the abortive attempt of Edward, son of King Ethelred, torecover the crown of England. [Planche''s *Conqueror and hisCompanions*, Vol. I, p. `63.] He is next heard of in 1053, when hewas left by Duke William in command of the forces blockading theCastle of Arques. For the invasion of England he found thirty vesselsand a hundred men-at-arms, and Wace informs us in his *Roman de Rou*that previous to the battle Raoul de Conches, the hereditary standardbearer of Normandy, having asked to be quit of the service that hemight fight with greater freedom, the Duke called to him WalterGiffard and desired him to bear the gonfanon. Walter prayed to beexcused on the ground that he was too old and feeble. "For the mercyof God, Sire," said the old knight, "look upon my white and bald head.My strength is impaired, and I am short of breath." Whereupon theDuke excused him. Orderic Vitalis names Gauthier Giffard amongs theConqueror's companions of most military reputation, and in anotherpart of his chronicle states that "Gauthier surnomme' Giffard eut enpartage le Comte' de Buckingham," at the same time as William deWarenne and Ralph de Guader received the Earldoms of Surrey andNorfolk." [continued under Walter (2) GIFFARD] --- Maj.-Gen The Hon. George Wrottesley, *Giffards from theConquest to the Present Time*, in *Collections for a History ofStaffordshire*, vol V. New Series, London (Harrison and Sons) 1902, p4-5.
Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-Lfirstname.lastname@example.org Received: from bl-30.rootsweb.com (bl-30.rootsweb.com[184.108.40.206]) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.12) with ESMTP idRAA29227; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-30.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14825; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Old-To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Date: 19 Jul 1998 14:17:21 -0700 From: Ian@iwml.demon.co.uk (Ian Mitchell Lambert) Message-ID: <0rBDOEAYFms1EwIl@www.csec.ac.uk> Organization: RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-Lemail@example.com References: Subject: Re: GEOFFREY DE MANDEVILLE MAGNA CARTA SURETY Resent-Message-ID: <"FXl5hB.A.dmD.KLms1"@bl-30.rootsweb.com> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/9014 X-Loop: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: GEN-MEDIEVAL-Lfirstname.lastname@example.org
In message email@example.com>, Benjamin Hertzel writes > >Ian, > >> I. William DE MANDEVILLE #3475 b. 1062, Rycott, Oxford, m.Margaret >> DE RIE #3476, b. 1057, Essex, (daughter of Eudo DE RIE #3500 andRohese >> FITZRICHARD DE CLARE #3501). William died 1130. > >Do you have a record as to the parents of Rohese FitzRichard deClare? > >Benjamin >
Benjamin: You're in luck! Here's the full ancestral tree I have for Rohese. Sheis no. 2 of family A. in the third generation. I note the irony that her father is of the BRIONNE family - as I am! I hope this helps!
Gerald FLAITEL #3568 b. CIR Jan 983/4, m. Mrs Flaitel #3569.
I. Agnes FLAITEL #3542 b. 1014, Normandy, France., m. Walter GIFFARD #3541, b. 1010, Longueville, France., (son of Osbern DE BOLBEC #3560 and Wevie DE CREPON #3561) d. 1084.
A. Rohese GIFFARD #3525 m. Richard FITZGILBERT #3524, b. CIR 1035, (son of Gilbert DE BRIONNE / BRION #3537 and Gunnora #3538)d. BEF 1090.
1. Gilbert FITZRICHARD #3510 b. BEF 1066, m. Adeliza DE CLAREMONT #3511, (daughter of Hugh DE CREIL #3530 and Margaret DEROUCY #3531). Gilbert died CIR 1116.
a. Richard FITZGILBERT DE CLARE #3512 b. Hertford, m. Adeliza DE MESCHINES #3517. Richard died 15 Apr 1136, slain near Abergavenny by the Welsh.
b. Alice DE CLARE #3479 m. Alberic DE VERE #3478, b. BEF 1090, (son of Alberic DE VER / DE VERE #3502 and Beatrix (de Vere) #3503) d. 15 May 1141, slain in London. Alice died CIR 1163.
(1) Aubrey DE VERE #3480 m. (1) Mrs Aubrey (de Vere)#3485, m. (2) CIR 1139, Beatrice DE GUISNES #3486, m. (3) BEF 1153, Eufeme DE CANTELUPE #3487, m. (4) CIR 1162, Agnes DE ESSEX #3488. Aubrey died26 Dec 1194.
(2) Robert DE VERE #3481
(3) Geoffrey DE VERE #3482
(4) William DE VERE #3489
(5) Alice DE VERE #3483 b. BEF 1141, m. (1) Robert DEESSEX #3490, m. (2) BEF 1178, Roger FITZRICHARD #3491. Alice died Aft 1184.
(6) Juliana DE VERE #3484 m. (1) Hugh BIGOD #3492, m. (2) Walkelin MAMINOT #3493, m. (3) Roger DE GLANVILLE #3494. Juliana died AFT 1184.
(7) Rohese DE VERE #3467 m. (1) Geoffrey DE MANDEVILLE #3466, b. 1092, (son of William DE MANDEVILLE #3475 and Margaret DERIE #3476) d. 14 Sep 1144, m. (2) Payne BEAUCHAMP #3495. Rohese died AFT Sep 1166.
c. Rohese DE MONMOUTH #3513 b. Pembroke, Wales, m. HughDE LACY #3518.
d. Gilbert DE CLARE #3514 m. Isabel DE BEAUMONT #3519. Gilbert died 6 Jan 1147/48.
e. Baldwin FITZGILBERT DE CLARE #3515 b. 1092, m. Adeline DE ROLLOS #3520. Baldwin died 1154.
f. Margaret DE CLARE #3516 m. William DE MONTFITCHET#3521. Margaret died AFT 1184.
***** 2. Rohese FITZRICHARD DE CLARE #3501 m. Eudo DE RIE#3500, b. 1063, Normandy, France., (son of Hubert DE RIE #3522 and Mrs Hubert (de Rie) #3523) d. CIR 13 Jul 1088.
a. Margaret DE RIE #3476 b. 1057, Essex, m. William DE MANDEVILLE #3475, b. 1062, Rycott, Oxford, (son of Geoffrey DE MANDEVILLE #3496 and Adeliza DE BALTS #3497) d. 1130.
(1) Geoffrey DE MANDEVILLE #3466 b. 1092, m. Rohese DEVERE #3467, (daughter of Alberic DE VERE #3478 and Alice DE CLARE #3479) d. AFT Sep 1166. Geoffrey died 14 Sep 1144.
(2) Beatrice DE MANDEVILLE #3461 b. 1105, m. (1) Hugh DE TALBOT #3477, m. (2) BEF 1197, William DE SAY #3460. Beatrice died 1197.
3. Robert FITZRICHARD #3526 m. 1112, Maud DE St. LIZ#3527. Robert died CIR 1135.
B. Walter GIFFARD #3543 d. 1164.
C. Isabel GIFFARD #3544 m. Richard GRANVILLE #3545.
All the best
Ancestry Chart sent by Richard Mosher has d 1102
Children of Walter (1) GIFFARD and Agnes FLAITELL are: