Notes for Robert III de BEAUCHAMP: 22nd ggf of Gordon Fisher
See note under Alice de MOHUN, daughter-in-law
X-Sender: email@example.com Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:10:25 +0800 Reply-To: Medieval Genealogy Discussion List Sender: Medieval Genealogy Discussion List From: Richard Borthwick Subject: Re: The Beauchamps Followup #1 To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
>Susan, thanx for the response. Even though you responded directly tome, I >am re-responding both to you and to GEN-MEDIEVAL. I trust you don'tmind. > >There is a Beatrice Beauchamp, who m. Hugh de Morville (d. 1162).What I >know of her was supplied by Kathleen Much, who used to be a regular >participant on GEN-MEDIEVCAL, but had to quit due to the press ofother >committments, She was quite knowledgeable in the area ofAnglo-Scottish >nobility. Following is a copy of a msg she sent to me about a yearago: >______________________________________________________________________ > I can't find the reference just now, but somewhere I found that >Beatrice's father was Robert de Beauchamp; I don't know who hermother was. >If Beatrice or her father had siblings, I didn't collect them. If shewas >the heiress of her grandfather, though, she probably didn't havesurviving >brothers or uncles. (Granted, her inheritance from her grandfatherdoes not >prove that she got ALL his property, and I haven't traced hisholdings to >see.) > There is an anecdote I once saw about Beatrice and Hugh de Morvilleto >the effect that her lover attacked Hugh with a sword but that shecried out >in English to warn Hugh. It was used as evidence that the Scoto-Normans >could speak English, perhaps in preference to French. Hugh andBeatrice are >commemorated on a plaque at Dryburgh Abbey and at least Hugh issupposed to >be buried there (I think Beatrice was, too, but it's been years sinceI was >there). > >W.H. Turton, _The Plantagenet Ancestry_ (1928, reprinted Baltimore1968), >says Beatrice de Beauchamp was the daughter of Pagan de Beauchamp and >Rohese de Vere; Pagan was the son of Hugh de Beauchamp (c. 1066) andRohese >the daughter of Alberic de Vere (d. 1141) and Adeliza de Clare. Ofcourse, >you know the pitfalls of believing >Turton. I won't have time to hunt up the other source for a while,but >something led me to believe it over Turton when I entered Robert inmy >database. When I converted it from PAF to Reunion, some of myfootnotes got >lost. > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >__ > >Your post below shows a Payne de Beauchamp of Bedford as a son of >Hugh(gen.1). I am wondering if this might be the same person as the >Robert/Pagan Beauchamp that Katherine Much says is probably thefather of >Beatrice. > >Can anyone shed additional light on the issue of the ancestry ofBeatrice >Beauchamp ?
Saunder's *English Baronies* pp.10-12 discusses the barony of Bedford. Hugh de Beauchamp (d.? before 1114) held lands of the barony in 1086.His eldest son Simon I succ. and d.1137/38. Simon's daughter and heir(name unknown) married but in fact did not inherit (there was a squabbleabout it). Her paternal uncle Robert d. before 1137 (i.e. before Simon I)and his sons Miles (d. at some time after 1142) and Payn (d.1156) succeeded inturn to the barony. Payn was followed by his son Simon II (d.1207)and Simon II by his sonand heir William I (d.1260). His eldest son Simon III dead by 1257 vp. Hisnext two sons in turn succeeded: William II (dsp.1262) and John dsp.1265).John's sisters Maud and Beatrice and the children of a third sister Ela were coheirs of the barony.
Saunders p.40 notes that Hugh I (d.1187) of Eaton Socon in Beds. was probably an illegitimate son of Simon I or of his brother Robert. The cartulary of Warden Abbey says he was the son of Simon I.
Saunders does not mention Beatrice but I have a note saying she isattested as sister of Payn de Beauchamp, daughter of Robert and wife of Hugh de Morville (d.1162). I will check this out. Saunders does not mentionthe marriage of Payn to Rohese de Vere (d.1166) which casts some doubt onit since he normally mentions cross connections between the baronialfamilies with which he deals. Maud (d.1273 wife firstly of Roger de Mowbray (d.1266)of Thirsk and secondly of Roger Lestrange (d.1311) ofEllesmere) and Beatrice (d. before 30 Sept 1285) were daughters of William I by hisfirst marriage to Gunnora de Lanvaley (d. before 1200). Beatrice marriedfirstly Thomas fitz Oates (d.1274) and secondly William de Mountchesney(d.1302) of Edwardstone. William I's daughter by his second marriage to IdaLongespee (d.1266/69), Ela (d. ca.1265), married Balwin Wake (d.1282) of Bourne.
>>Jim, >> >>I'm 'guessing' I got this from Homer James' work, probably via Paul >>McBride. Hope you excuse the ratty margins. The information onBertha De >>Braose, m. Walter may now be wrong. >> >>Sue >> >>Descendants of Hugh DE BEAUCHAMP Companion of the Conqueror >> >>1 Hugh DE BEAUCHAMP Companion of the Connqueror >> 2 Walter DE BEAUCHAMP of Elmsley Castle b: in ofElmsley >>Castle, >>Gloucester >>.. +Emeline ABITOT m: Aft 1066 >> 3 William DE BEAUCHAMP 1st Baron Beauchamp b:in >>Elmsley Castle, >>Gloucester d: 1170 >>... +Maud DE BRAOSE m: Bef 1150 >> 4 William DE BEAUCHAMP 2nd Baron Beauchamp d: >>Bef 1211 >>... +Joan WALERIE >> 5 Walter DE BEAUCHAMP 3rd Baron Beauchamp d:1235 >>.... +Bertha DE BRAOSE >> 6 Walcheline DE BEAUCHAMP 4th Baron Beauchamp d: >>1235 >>.... +Joane MORTIMER >>. 7 William DE BEAUCHAMP 5th Baron Beauchamp d: >>Bef May 09, 1269 in >>Elmley Castle, England >>..... +Isabel MAUDUIT d: Aft Jan 07, 1266/67 >>.. 8 William DE BEAUCHAMP 1st Earl of Warwick b: >>1237 in of >>Elmley & Hanslape d: Jun 05, 1298 in Elmley Castle, England >>...... +Maud FITZJOHN, Countess of Warwick d:Apr 16, >>1301 in Grey >>Friars, England >>.. 9 Isabel BEAUCHAMP b: Abt 1236 inWarwick, >>Warwickshire, >>England d: Abt May 30, 1306 in Elmley Castle >>...... +Patrick (Sir Knight) DE CHAWORTH b: Abt 1250in >>Kidwelly, >>Carmarthen, England d: Bef Jul 07, 1283 in d.s.p.m. m: 1250 >>.. *2nd Husband of Isabel BEAUCHAMP: >>...... +Hugh III Despencer Sr. b: 1236 d: 1265 in Slain at >>Evesham m: 1260 >>.. 9 Guy de Beauchamp 2nd Earl of Warwick b:1278 d: >>Aug 10, >>1315 in Warwick Castle >>...... +Alice de Toeni b: Abt 1283 d: Abt Jan 08,1322/23 m: >>Bef Feb 28, >>1308/09 >>.. 9 Maud Beauchamp >>...... +_ Rithco >>.. 9 Margaret Beauchamp >>...... +John Sudley >>.. 9 Ann Beauchamp, nun >>.. 9 Amy Beauchamp, nun >>.. 8 John de Beauchamp of Holt >>.. 8 Walter de Beauchamp of Powyke b: in ofPowyke & >>Alcester, >>Warwick >>...... +Alice de Toeni >>.. 9 Walter de Beauchamp d: in d.s.p. >>.. 9 William de Beauchamp d: in d.s.p. >>.. 9 Giles de Beauchamp d: Oct 12,1361 >>...... +Catherine (Katherine) Buresa m:1329 >> 6 James de Beauchamp >>2 Simon de Beauchamp d: in d.s.p. >>2 Payne de Beauchamp of Bedford >>2 Milo de Beauchamp of Eaton >> 3 Daughter de Beauchamp >>... +Hugh 'the Poor' de Beaumont >> 2 Adeline Beauchamp >>.. +Walter Le Espec, Loed of Kirkham & Helmsley >> >>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= >>Susan Shannon >>Orlando, FL >>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= >>ARNOLD, CARPENTER, DERBY, DROWNE, >>GREENE, HILL, RHODES, RUSSELL, >>STAFFORD, WHITNEY > >Today is the first day of the rest of your life !(firstname.lastname@example.org) Jim > >
Children of Robert III de BEAUCHAMP and Juliana BRETT are: